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  • Gondors story is a lot like Americas story

    Gondor

    There was a sea-faring people (Numenor) who Explored many lands.

    There was a Minority who stayed loyal to the Elves.

    The Minority built Pelargir as a Colony.

    Later the rest of the Minority came to it with the Sinking of Numenor.

    They established a Nation which became the most Powerful in Middle-Earth.

    There was a Civil war and The North was Destroyed by the South but then they came back and destroyed The South.

    America

    There was a sea-faring people (Britain) who Explored many lands.

    There was a Minority who wanted to escape Britain so they could live peacefully.

    The Minority built Plymouth as a Colony.

    Later more of Britain built 12 other Colonies.

    the Colonies Rebelled against Britain.

    There was a Civil war and The South was Destroyed by the North.

    The Nation became 1 of the the most powerful on the Earth.

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    • Gondor:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Haradrim out of thier lands.

      America:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Native Americans out of thier lands.  

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    • ........

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    • MERICA

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    • PeterBobsonOver9000 wrote:
      Gondor:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Haradrim out of thier lands.

      America:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Native Americans out of thier lands.

      I whole-heartedly agree with that, and to add:

      Númenor: Thinks they are the best country in tthe entirety of ME

      Merica: THinks they are the best Country in the world

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    • Also:

      Denethor, Steward of Gondor, receives fake news from palantír.

      Donald, President of US of America, receives fake news from Internet.

      Denethor tells soldiers to abandon their posts.

      Donald tells people they are fired.

      Denethor stops Orcs from entering Gondor.

      Donald stops Muslims from entering America.

      Denethor rebuilds the Rammas Echor, encircling his City.

      Donald promises to build a great wall on the border with Mexico.

      Denethor's son disobeys him.

      Donald's son fidgets at official events.

      Denethor sits in his tower or the White City, looking into a palantír.

      Donald sits in Trump Towers or the White House, tweeting.

      (I don't really have a problem with Trump, this is a joke.)

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    • xD

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    • Gondor is more based on Rome and Greek, Numenor could be Atlantis

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    • i mean the history of gondor.....the buildings and armour/weapons are another story

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    • PeterBobsonOver9000 wrote:
      Gondor:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Haradrim out of thier lands.

      America:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Native Americans out of thier lands.

      Gondor actually ignored the Dunlendings, with the Easterlings they attacked first and Gondor attacked in retaliation(and won alot of territory), with the Haradhrim, well it seemed Ciryaher really cared for his father, enough to destroy the Haradhrim armies and make the various kingdoms vassals to Gondor.

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    • Catfishperson
      Catfishperson removed this reply because:
      We really don't need any more of this on the wiki I think.
      04:21, April 18, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • PeterBobsonOver9000 wrote:
      Gondor:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Dunlendings, Easterlings, and Haradrim out of thier lands.

      America:

      Killed, enslaved, and kicked the Native Americans out of thier lands.

      Actually, Gondor never enslaved anyone...

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    • Catfishperson
      Catfishperson removed this reply because:
      We really don't need any more of this on the wiki I think.
      04:21, April 18, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Your colonization story of Murica is slightly off.

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    • what part??

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    • I would have thought that they taken the name plymouth from the Devon City In S/W England, where they set sail from. Although i know nothing on US history (being a Briton and all).

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    • Well, fox, the original - and I use this term to mean the original lasting colony - colony was not at Plymouth, where the pilgrims were.. But rather at Jamestown. It was not nice and happy. It was a horror story. They also came in large part for wealth.

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    • I believe that Gondor was based more on the Byzantine empire. Gondor/Arnor used to be a massive empire like the old Roman empire used to be, and then Gondor/Arnor split like west/east Rome split. Then, Arnor eventually was overwhelmed by hordes like west Rome was overrun by barbaric tribes, while Gondor survived but slowly declined over the rest of the age like the Byzantine empire slowly declined throughout the medieval era.

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    • Let's not get too off-track with the based-on-blahblah theories. If everything in LotR was based off real life, then it wouldn't be a fantasy novel.

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    • Gondor has a lot more in common with Constantinople. Only difference being; they were a lot larger, and didn't have a church as a major power. I would agree with @Jimmy Dude 21, but in the fourth age, Gondor makes the united empire. Constantinople dies when it encounters the Plague. The Roman Empire lives on through the Germans, which does not happen in LOTR because the equivalent to the Germans would be Angmar...

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    • Saying the American Colonies were founded for one single reason isn't really correct. A few of the New England colonies were founded to "Escape Britain", on the grounds of Religion. Even so, even these colonies became more economically focused over time. The Middle and Southern Colonies were founded primarily for moneymaking in the tobacco, sugar, and indigo industries. But even that is a generalisation: Georgia, for instance, was originally founded by a British General-turned-philanthropist as a haven for those wrongly imprisoned for debt, and as a slave-free colony. What I don't really like about these historical "comparisons" is the amount of (wrong) generalisations that occur. Especially this whole "Is Gondor really a good faction?" nonsense. Tolkien was very straightforward in outlining good and evil in his stories. It was his way of dealing with the lack of morals and no clear good or evil in World War I.

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    • Did America enslave Native Americans? Did Gondor ever use slaves? This is @ the first comment, btw. Forgot to add a quote.

      I'll try to not take that too personally, but I'll defend my country in a firey debate if you push me too far.

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    • Also, Minas Tirith is basically a Constantinople that didn't fall. I always saw Germans as Rhovanion.

      But you know what? Tolkien never actually based any of his Middle-earth nations off of irl ones. Sure, maybe he compared them to each other, but he didn't flat out base them off them. Which is why it's stupid to compare them.

      Who's the elven factions? Or do those simply not exist?

      Dwarves?

      The only things Tolkien used when comparing his world to irl is with geography and climate. The Shire was like England and Ireland in those respects, and Gondor was similar to Italy. The Bay of Belaflas screams Mediterranian to me. It has deserts to the south and east, and pretty decent lands on the north. 

      Which leads me to my long list of problems with Dorwinion's loaction. It is basically located where southern Russia is, which isn't mild at all. It has temperature extremes a lot. Dorwinion should be an cold place with lots of communists runnning around. I think Tolkien just sort of threw it in there as an after thought, honestly, not really caring where it went. 

      I have many more problems with Dorwinion, but I'll stop there.

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    • He, did, in fact base his cultures off of real-world cultures. However, basing off of does not mean they are identical. He took some inspiration and created his own thing.

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    • Recneps wrote: He, did, in fact base his cultures off of real-world cultures. However, basing off of does not mean they are identical. He took some inspiration and created his own thing.

      Applicability, not allegory.

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    • Even is mericas history is similar, you gotta remember that this is when they used swords... Plus there are many nations with more or less similar histories. You know, with Empire and all in Europe and everyone else wanting freedom.

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    • Jimmy Dude 21 wrote: I believe that Gondor was based more on the Byzantine empire. Gondor/Arnor used to be a massive empire like the old Roman empire used to be, and then Gondor/Arnor split like west/east Rome split. Then, Arnor eventually was overwhelmed by hordes like west Rome was overrun by barbaric tribes, while Gondor survived but slowly declined over the rest of the age like the Byzantine empire slowly declined throughout the medieval era.

      Tolkien thought Gondor and Arnor more like ancient Egypt.

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    • MrHobit1234 wrote:

      Jimmy Dude 21 wrote: I believe that Gondor was based more on the Byzantine empire. Gondor/Arnor used to be a massive empire like the old Roman empire used to be, and then Gondor/Arnor split like west/east Rome split. Then, Arnor eventually was overwhelmed by hordes like west Rome was overrun by barbaric tribes, while Gondor survived but slowly declined over the rest of the age like the Byzantine empire slowly declined throughout the medieval era.

      Tolkien thought Gondor and Arnor more like ancient Egypt.

      Not only that, but the Greeks thought the Coptics (Egyptians) were descended from the Men of Atlantis. That's quite the parralel. 

      In addition to that, both nations made great works of stone. Both Gondor and Egpyt were attacked so many times (Egpyt faired somewhat worse).


      Also, Tolkien hated allegories. Which is why he never based his things in the books off of in real life problems or other things.

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    • Donald (I believe) is trying to set the foundations for the Mexican wall. XD

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    • Eoros wrote: Did America enslave Native Americans? Did Gondor ever use slaves? This is @ the first comment, btw. Forgot to add a quote.

      I'll try to not take that too personally, but I'll defend my country in a firey debate if you push me too far.

      To my knowledge America never enslaved Native Americans, and according to Ithillion Gondor did not use slaves either; We did forcefully take their land though, which is the next worse thing.

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    • Lets all agree that all European colonies were terrible

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    • Eoros wrote: Dorwinion should be an cold place with lots of communists runnning around.

      Why, that just sounds lovely, doesn't it? (Apologies for the unrelated post)

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    • To say all colonies are evil is an astounding generalisation-

      The colony of Savannah, Georgia, was founded by James Oglethorpe to give the poor in Britain another chance at life. He also outlawed slavery in the colony, in 1733! Oglethorpe and the local Indian chief, Tomo chi-chi, became fast friends and built up an alliance between the two peoples, and when the latter died, he was buried with full military honours in the City.

      Then, on the opposite end of the spectrum, you had the Belgians in the Congo, who cut local's hands off for not making enough rubber. 

      My point is that History isn't as clear-cut and black-and-white as people would like it to be. And in most cases, viewing it through a 21st century lense of "Good-and-Bad" will not lead to actual facts or any real lessons being learned.

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    • Ik it is broad but I mean not small towns, but rather regions. Look at India, the Americas, Africa and Australia where MASS GENOCIDES occurred due to the Imperial ambitions of the populous. By mass genocides I mean the death of millions by plagues and famines or simply horrid leaders. I am sure a few happy Europeans in Georgia wouldn't care about the other few million deaths.

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    • Just so you know, Australia was a penal colony. There were no mass horrors committed. 

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    • Just so you know, Australia was a pina colada.

      Wait I read that wrong.

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    • Uhhh, ever heard of how the Australian government had aborigine children kidnapped and forced to become "civilized"?

      Or about how the inhabitants of New Zealand were slaughtered?

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    • Plus all the diseases that killed like 95% of the population!!!! Sooooo many languages died out, soooo many cultures.

      So yeah, I am an Aussie, ik what I am talking about (Studying Aus history is boring as)

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    • Eoros, the horrors were against the natives, not the prisoners.

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    • Recneps wrote:
      Eoros, the horrors were against the natives, not the prisoners.

      Did I say anything about that....?


      I literally just said Australia was a penal colony. I haven't said a word about horrors committed against the natives, because I am a man of reason, and I don't deny it.

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    • "There were no mass horrors committed"

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    • 73.150.132.3 wrote: Uhhh, ever heard of how the Australian government had aborigine children kidnapped and forced to become "civilized"?

      Or about how the inhabitants of New Zealand were slaughtered?

      Slaughtered? Hardly. A few non-compliant tribes wiped out, maybe.

      Afaik the English traded Muskets for food and land, and that lead to the Māori Musket Wars. Thousands of Māori died, yes. But not because of the English. The English only made it easier for them to kill each other.

      TurammarthHeraldry-0 Aranwë Túrammarth Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo!

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    • You still haven't denied the fact of the forced assimilation of native children, so my point still stands that there were atrocities committed by the new arrivals.

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    • I was reffering to millions of people being butchered, hence why i said no mass horrors. My position is that of Rayn. 

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    • Mass genocides aren't a strictly European thing. Pretty much everyone, historically speaking, has commited genocide of some form. Just about every country on Earth has been, at different times, the oppressor and the oppressed. Saying any race, culture, or nation is more or less "guilty" of oppression or wrongdoing in what has been a fundamental tenet of power dynamics throughout all human history is an absolute fallacy. Imperialism, and the process of peoples vying for dominance over one another, has always been the language of human history and politics, and for better or worse, always will be. I crack a lot of jokes about Imperialism; but unironically I believe it's a thing that is a side-effect of human nature, that every culture is and has been susceptable to... and given the course of history, that's not likely to change. Like everything in human history: Imperialism has had positive and negative effects.

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    • The Australian Government did that, I would assume that it was fairly large scale.

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    • I never said it was strictly a European thing. The Atahualpa of the in a empire arranged a genocide of his half brother, Huascar's relatives. The only reason the genocides done by Europeans are highlighted is because they:

      1. Had better weaponry compared to most of their victims, and so had an easier time.

      2. A significant amount of older historical accounts were destroyed, unlike those of more recent ones during the "age of exploration".

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    • Lord Eldacar put it fairly well, I'd say. All societies had their ups and downs, some certainly more than others. 

      Some good did come from European colonialism, but there were obviously bad things too. 


      Honestly, I think this debate is pointless. We can all agree every society has done bad things to some extent, and some good did come amongst the evil of European colonializations. What are we even arguing about, to be honest?

      If we're arguing about the numbers of Aborigines killed, i'll settle this right now with some cold, hard facts:

      There were not millions of Aborigines killed. There numbers did reduce drastically though: from 250,000 to 60,000. This is truly horrifying, but let's not exaggerate here. 

      As far as the total the British killed in general, I'd place the number a little over 1 million. So Lego did exaggerate a little bit.

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    • Ok. Discussion over, then?

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    • Yep we are just agreeing that everyone kills thousands but some good stuff comes out of it

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    • Next thing you know, we'll be debating about some other random topic...

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    • And Mordor Russia then and Harad arabs.

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    • I'm pretty sure Mordor wasn't based off of anyone...

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    • So was Gondor probs and most. Like if Gondor is Murica then Mordor is fiting Russia, even more perfect actually.

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    • Gondor is absolutely nothing like America in hardly any sense. Come on people...


      Mordor was symbolic, and thus was not based on anyone. There was no volcanic land hundreds of thousands of square miles large east of Italy or Egypt. I'm also fairly convinced, but pardon me if I'm uninformed, that there were no hordes of Orcs living in Arabia. I don't know. Maybe the massive amount of history books i've read just leave out that massive detail.

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    • TheodenOfRohan wrote:
      I'm pretty sure Mordor wasn't based off of anyone...

      Mordor I believe was based of the image of what industrialization does to the country side with all the black and ruined land and the chocking ash.

      Also the shire is the a prime example of the reverse with the rolling green hills and quaint countryside (Something Tolkien loved)

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    • On another note you can't say Mordor is 'Russia'. Have you seen Russia it has all sorts of climates and environments. Plus I'm assuming if we are comparing Gondor to America and Mordor to Russia that would be under the assumption Russia is evil, maybe in our day it is. But for Tolkien Russia was an ally during the first world war.

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    • Russia =/= Dale

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    • Eh, that's the closest guess, I think Dale was based off of the Russian vikings.

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    • They were *partially* based off the Russian Vikings, but be aware that they were not just Russian Vikings. They were also Dalishmen, and a unique culture.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lómë) 12:29, April 22, 2017 (UTC)

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    • ^ with Dalish pastries, so also a Dansih influence xD

      Wait a second... Danish, Dalish that is just off by one consonant...

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    • High King Ithilion wrote: They were *partially* based off the Russian Vikings, but be aware that they were not just Russian Vikings. They were also Dalishmen, and a unique culture.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lómë) 12:29, April 22, 2017 (UTC)

      Well, yes, I hope we are assuming that each culture in ME is at least partially unique :(

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    • Yeah Dale seems similar to Novgorod in medieval terms. But that's probably from the style of clothing and architecture seen in the hobbit films that made that impression, on me at least.

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    • All cultures in ME were in fact own, unique cultures

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    • In Tolkiens notes he actually compared Gondor to Venice and Umbar to the barbary pirates 

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      • COmpared* though not said based off
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    • Tbh if Gondor was Murica, then they'd go to war on Umbar and then decide to just pay them off instead.

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    • true, or get someone else to war them.

      Tbh I notice Murica is kinda like a bully, in the sense that they wouldn't do anything unless they got the backing of the crowd e.g Europe and friends

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    • Murica did a lot without backing. And the example I gave of paying them off happened.. Murica payed off the Barbary Pirates and kinda stopped their 'war' on them.

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    • FutureFox wrote:
      Gondors story is a lot like Americas story

      Gondor

      There was a sea-faring people (Numenor) who Explored many lands.

      There was a Minority who stayed loyal to the Elves.

      The Minority built Pelargir as a Colony.

      Later the rest of the Minority came to it with the Sinking of Numenor.

      They established a Nation which became the most Powerful in Middle-Earth.

      There was a Civil war and The North was Destroyed by the South but then they came back and destroyed The South.

      America

      There was a sea-faring people (Britain) who Explored many lands.

      There was a Minority who wanted to escape Britain so they could live peacefully.

      The Minority built Plymouth as a Colony.

      Later more of Britain built 12 other Colonies.

      the Colonies Rebelled against Britain.

      There was a Civil war and The South was Destroyed by the North.

      The Nation became 1 of the the most powerful on the Earth.

      I see them More like Byzantium

      A powerful Nation (Numenor/Rome) conqures much of the world around a sea (Belfalas/Mediterrainian), they eventually fall, and what remains fights the (Ottomans/Mordor) the biggest diffrence then comes one falls and one survives, but thats how I've always seen them, and Arnor etc are the other Kingdoms formed from the ashes of Rome. 

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    • I wouldn't compare mordor to the Ottomans... you know, seeing as the Ottomans weren't evil and also contributed far more to culture and science then rome did (Sorry orcs, but you don't have too much culture wise)

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    • Legoarmy505 wrote:
      true, or get someone else to war them.

      Tbh I notice Murica is kinda like a bully, in the sense that they wouldn't do anything unless they got the backing of the crowd e.g Europe and friends

      Well, we've been bombing Syria and ISIS as of late. And its not like the Syria bombings are getting tons of support in the US.

      And calling the US a bully is quite frankly stupid. We've always stood up for justice around the world, and we always will. It's our committment. It's why I think America is superior to other countries: not because of race (we don't have a particular racial identity), it's because we've stood up for good. We've failed, sure, but so has everyone else. We'll leave the past behind us. The past is done and gone, the future has yet to happen. The present is all that matters.

      Do you have any proof of America not doing anything because they weren't backed up? I have proof of America doing the right thing even when it was hated for it, like removing general MacArthur, or the Iraq War.

      If you can't prove it, I'm not listening.

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    • I am not calling it a bully, only stating that it likes having support from other nations, the same way a bully would like have the support of a crowd, stop seeing whatever I say an insult XD though I guess comparing something to a bully...

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    • Tbh USA is guy who isnt bully but when someone screws witht them they beat them bloody. Russia is bully.

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    • Eoros wrote:

      Legoarmy505 wrote:
      true, or get someone else to war them.

      Tbh I notice Murica is kinda like a bully, in the sense that they wouldn't do anything unless they got the backing of the crowd e.g Europe and friends

      Well, we've been bombing Syria and ISIS as of late. And its not like the Syria bombings are getting tons of support in the US.

      And calling the US a bully is quite frankly stupid. We've always stood up for justice around the world, and we always will. It's our committment. It's why I think America is superior to other countries: not because of race (we don't have a particular racial identity), it's because we've stood up for good. We've failed, sure, but so has everyone else. We'll leave the past behind us. The past is done and gone, the future has yet to happen. The present is all that matters.

      Do you have any proof of America not doing anything because they weren't backed up? I have proof of America doing the right thing even when it was hated for it, like removing general MacArthur, or the Iraq War.

      If you can't prove it, I'm not listening.

      Superior? You actually think that you are better than the rest of us? Do you think that the US advocates the truth better than, say, the Holy See (since you are a Catholic)? Or even any other country?

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    • Well many think their country is best.

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    • KHAMULofHARDA wrote: Well many think their country is best.

      Many do. And many are wrong.

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    • True. Only Albanians think right.

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    • xD the trick is to not believe any country is better than the rest because we are worthless Men who make no difference in the world unless the dictator comes along and Ruins it... At least Heaven is the best kingdom! (Depends on perspective, just appealing to religious viewers, not hate me / start discussion I mean we got enough of them already)

      Also tbh, if we call countries best on freedom n stuff Greece may beat America caz they had the first democracies and hated tyrants...

      To be completely honest America is as free as most Western countries soooo

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    • If you find that democracy is that only males above 18 years with land (basically the high-ranked people) have a voice. then you're right. But talking about human rights, Libia was doing a darn good job.. but then.. The US and France came....

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    • Didn't say I was better than you... I said my country was.

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    • Gorbag12
      Gorbag12 removed this reply because:
      Off-topic
      13:45, April 25, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Nah, I don't want anymore hate XD

      New topic please someone

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    • Gorbag12
      Gorbag12 removed this reply because:
      Off-Topic (But I agree with him)
      13:44, April 25, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Gorbag12
      Gorbag12 removed this reply because:
      Off-Topic
      13:44, April 25, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Gorbag12
      Gorbag12 removed this reply because:
      Off-Topic
      13:44, April 25, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • No. Sorry but no new topics, pleade stay on topic or this thread or start a new thread.

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    • Thank you Gorbag

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    • A FANDOM user
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